"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a woman." Job 31:1
I heard a saying once, "You can have character or be a character."
Have character! Christ's character. We become like the one we spend the most time with. Psalm 1:1-3 says, "Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and who meditates on his law day and night. That person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither whatever they do prospers."
My mother always told me this, "Show me your friends, I will show you your future." Associations will make you or break you. The most influential person in your life, the one you should spend consistent time with acclimating your character to; is the Lord Jesus Christ and the person of the Holy Spirit.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Galatians 5:22-23
"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
Colossians 3:12-15 “Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.”
“Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.” 1 John 4:8
"For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love." 2 Peter 1:5-7
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45
First things first... some of you visiting this page may have never accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into your hearts...
I urge you to click on the button and go to the first page and say the Salvation Prayer sincerely from your heart. There are some of you that are already Christians that may have tried to gain freedom to these areas of your life and bring them under control and in your own strength have failed miserably... please recommit your life to Him and ask Him to help you to overcome. He can and will do for you what you have not been able to do on your own. We are here to assist you in that process.
Men tend to have more anti-social personality disorders.
One in eight men are diagnosed with a common mental disorder (e.g. depression, anxiety, phobia, obsessive compulsive disorder and panic disorder).
Men are nearly 50% more likely than women to be detained and treated compulsorily as psychiatric inpatients.
Depression is often found to be more difficult to diagnose in men.
4 in 5 suicides are men.
The highest suicide rates in the U.S. are found in Caucasian men over age 85. However, suicide is also one of the leading causes of death in adolescents and adults ages 15 to 24.
A large American study has found that men are twice as likely as women to have a substance dependence disorder, with a lifetime prevalence of almost 36%.
Men in the 25 to 34 year age group were twice as likely as those in the 45 to 50 year old age group to report substance dependency. Alcohol and drug abuse are strongly associated with an increased suicide rate in men.
Before you can fulfill your role as a man in Christ Jesus; you first must have an understanding of who you are and whose you are. If you do not understand what it means to be a new creation in Christ and now in Him, you have been adopted as His own son; it will cause a counter productive ripple effect into every other area of your life, if this isn't fully understood.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name." John 1:12
"So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God's Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, "Abba, Father."" Romans 8:15
"My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof, For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights." Proverbs 3:11-12
Men are wired differently than women; highly visual creatures and statistically proven to think about sex more than the female counterpart. The word says, "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, THINK about these things.' Philippians 4:8
For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. 1 John 2:16
Pornography Viewing Christian Non-Christian
several times a day 7% 3%
at least once daily 12% 10%
several times a week 18% 29%
several times a month 15% 14%
at least once a month 12% 9%
a few times a year 9% 17%
less often 25% 12%
never 3% 6%
Spiritual Forces in Operation
Spirit of Porneia-Spirit of Whoredom
Spirit of Lust-Spirit of Perversion
Spirit of Seduction- Spirit of Enticement
Unclean Spirit-Spirit of Molestation
Spirit of Anger-Spirit of Rage
Spirit of Idolatry- Spirit of Adultery
Spirit of Violence-Spirit of Sucide
Generational Curse-Transferred Spirit
Natural Causes in Operation
The need to be in control. Most who have an addiction to pornography or have other addictive behaviors tend to use something to give them a 'fix or a high' and most of the time, the 'drug of choice' is frequented more often at heightened times of stress and times of feeling out of control of their lives and environment.
Pornography is more addictive than a drug.
Reprogramming of sorts to the mind:
To the impulse control and pleasure centers of the brain.
Obsessive Compulsive Disorders.
Impulse Control Disorders.
Heightened Testosterone Levels.
Depression. Loneliness. Insecurities.
Hatred-Degradation of Women.
(Pleasuring oneself by something you would never have or be able to do in reality)
Some men grew up in homes neglected emotionally where healthy love and affection weren't modeled.
The Lord desires you have integrity in business and in the market place. In Ephesians 2:10 it says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ordained before the foundation of the earth, that we should walk in them." The word 'works' in this verse, isn't referring to charitable works as we have been taught. In the Greek: 'works' is ergon which is translated: business, enterprise, an undertaking,any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind.
You were created to be the head and not the tail as God promised in Deuteronomy 28. One cannot do the 'good works'- charitable deeds until he first is established in 'works'-ergon, creating the wealth with the work of your hands.
“To the faithful you show yourself faithful, to the blameless you show yourself blameless, to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the shrewd you show yourself shrewd. 2 Samuel 22:26-27
"So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 3:5
" For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." Ephesians 5:5
"Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body." 1 Corinthians 6:18-20
"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality." Galatians 5:19
"Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her." Leviticus 18:20
"But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself." Proverbs 6:32
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
"You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." James 4:4
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. " Revelation 21:8
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"Physical training is good, but training for godliness is much better, promising benefits in this life and in the life to come." 1 Timothy 4:8
"To open eyes that are blind,to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness." Isaiah 42:7
What Pornography Teaches the Man
CHILDREN WHO GROW UP IN HOMES WHERE VIOLENCE IS PRESENT ARE:
- 6 times more likely to commit suicide
- 24 times more likely to be sexually assaulted
- 67 times more likely to engage in delinquent behavior as an adolescent
- 100 times more likely to be abusers themselves
- 1500 times more likely to be abused or neglected
3.3 million children witness domestic violence in their homes each year.
United States Department of Justice: Special Report, 2002
The Good News is; Jesus Christ shed His blood on the Cross to die for you. He died and rose again so you could have life and have it more abundantly. John 10:10. There is power in that shed blood of Jesus Christ to break every chain and to deliver you from everything that has kept you bound. There isn't anything He will not forgive, nor is there anything too big that He cannot deliver you from. If you need prayer or counseling; please reach out to us. We're here for you, you're not alone.
In July of 1999 my life changed forever. I sat with a man who I truly love, honor and respect. He said something so simple to me, he said this, "The Bible is your Manual for Living."
I pass his words of wisdom onto you, so simple but such a profound truth. The Bible, the Word of God is His manual for living. Apart from living according to His word; you are dying.
“But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.”
The great thing about how God created us mentally and spiritually is that we are reprogrammable.
In Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will."
Having nice things, even luxurious things isn't a bad thing. The Lord wants you to have nice things just so long as you don't worship the creation rather than the Creator and they become idols to you. An idol is anything that takes place of the real thing and anything you think about, spend more time with than the Lord, is an idol.
Now we've seen the fruits; the external behaviors...
Now let's discuss the roots; the internal pain that has induced these coping mechanisms.
Alcohol & Other Substance Abuse
According to A.A.,"The definition of alcoholism, most of us agree that, for us, it could be described as a physical compulsion, coupled with a mental obsession.
It by definition excludes 'social drinker'." Alcoholism is an illness and one will find themselves engaging in risky and often reckless behavior while under the influence, that one normally wouldn't when sober. You may read more here... http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-1_thisisaa1.pdf
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics - https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/infographics/substance-use-in-women-men
https://www.menshealthforum.org.uk/key-data-mental-health - http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/mental_health_disorders/mental_health_disorder_statistics_85,P00753/
20% of Substance Abusers have an anxiety disorder or mood disorder such as depression.
More than half of new illicit drug users begin with marijuana.
Drug addiction usually begins with prescription drugs.
Males start using drugs at an earlier age. Males abuse drugs more often and in larger amounts.
5 Million men reported Prescription Medication misuse last year.
45% of past-year treatment admissions for barbiturate misuse are men.
There continues to be a large "treatment gap" in this country. In 2013, an estimated 22.7 million Americans needed treatment for a problem related to drugs or alcohol, but only about 2.5 million people received treatment at a specialty facility. While men are more likely to develop addictions after starting to use drugs with their peers, often in their teens, women, she says, are more likely to do so because they are in a relationship with a man who is using.
Men are three times as likely to report frequent drug use than women.
More than two thirds of drug-related deaths occur in men.
The Devil has been busy attacking and destroying males-
73% of adults who ‘go missing’ are men.
87% of rough sleepers are men.
Men make up 95% of the prison population.
Boys are performing less well than girls at all levels of education.
Men do most of their peer-bonding up until the age of 18 and after that; the tendency to bond with other males declines.
Men have measurably lower access to the social support of friends, relatives and community.
Men commit 86% of violent crime (and are twice as likely to be victims of violent crime).
Boys are around three times more likely to receive a permanent or fixed period of peer-social exclusion than girls.
This video is about a Police Officer's struggle with pornography and how he almost committed suicide one night...
As the husband and wife come together; this SPEAKS of Christ and the Church.
The Husband's role to the wife is that of Christ's role to the church which is the head. He is the servant leader, the guide, teacher, protector, provider, lover, best friend, comforter, counselor, confidante, covering, high priest, intercessor, healer, deliverer, etc., (to name a few).
Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." Genesis 2:8 (Notice: The Lord told man- it is not good for 'man' to be alone. No where in Scripture do we find a verse saying it is not good for 'woman' to be alone.
Man needs his rib, a helpmate, one with an intuitive nature, designed by God- sensitive to the Holy Spirit in praying and in protecting you.
"House and wealth are an inheritance from fathers, But a prudent wife is from the LORD. " Proverbs 19:14
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her. " Ephesians 5:25
"You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered." 1 Peter 3:7
Many need to be reparented by their Heavenly Father because their Earthly Father may not have been the best example of what a Father and Man should be. We look to our Heavenly Father to understand how to be a Son and how to be a Father the way He desires. We look to Jesus Christ, the Man to see how we are to model ourselves after the Man- in word, deed, and conduct.
Childhood Verbal, Physical, Emotional, Sexual Abuse & Neglect
What Spiritual Forces are in Operation
Spirit of Alcoholism-Spirit of Pharmakeia
Spirit of Pharmakeia a/k/a Spirit of Witchcraft
Spirit of Depression-Spirit of Suicide
Generational Curse-Genetic Curse
Carousing Spirit-Spirit of Lasciviousness
Spirit of Deception
As a Single:
Men seem to be wired differently than women. They struggle more with loneliness and these Scriptures are for you to pray about as to which one suits you. Some are given the gift of celibacy and are content as a single man serving the Lord.
Others, the self control is not found. The Lord has created each of you unique according to His plans and purposes.
Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." Genesis 2:8
" I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world, how he can please his wife." 1 Corinthians 7:32-33
"But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust." 1 Corinthians 7:9
"The man who finds a wife finds a treasure, and he receives favor from the LORD." Proverbs 18:22
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul? Matthew 16:26
"With her many persuasions she entices him; with her flattering lips she seduces him. Suddenly he follows her as an ox goes to the slaughter, Or as one in fetters to the discipline of a fool, until an arrow pierces through his liver; As a bird hastens to the snare, so he does not know that it will cost him his life. Now therefore, my sons, listen to me, and pay attention to the words of my mouth. Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways, do not stray into her paths. For many are the victims she has cast down, and numerous are all her slain. Her house is the way to Sheol, descending to the chambers of death. " Proverbs 7:21-27
Pornography is a Teacher:
It teaches you to be takers rather than givers, meaning one uses pornography to pleasure themselves only. Teaches selfishness. Teaches you, that you don't have to bond emotionally or intimately with a female. Teaches you, a woman has no voice. Teaches you, that you don't have to communicate with her.
Teaches you, a woman isn't good for anything else, other than your pleasure. Teaches you, that you don't have to cater to a woman's wants or needs. Teaches you, that you don't have to put forth an effort in a relationship for the goal which is physical intimacy. Teaches you, you don't have to be a gentleman, you don't have to date her, court her, buy her dinner, or spoil your Queen with sentiments...
Teaches you, a woman is not to be honored but to be degraded; to be cheapened.
Teaches you, to act out your fantasy with one night stands and sex outside of marriage and covenant commitment. Teaches you, that a woman is trash, to be discarded. I find it interesting that most men addicted to porn leave their magazines on the bathroom floor which is the dirtiest part of the home. It's also thrown to the ground, the lowest point. Some hide them because of shame. Even though you will never meet those women in the magazines; that speaks volumes as to how you truly view them.
Pornography is a Liar:
Pornography tells you the lie that she loves you and she is just there waiting silently to pleasure you. A woman in reality one could not obtain in the natural. Video's reenactments you would never be able to perform in reality. It lies and tells you it's no big deal. It lies and tells you it's not hurting anyone. It lies that it effects only you- disguising the fact it has caused you to open demonic doors and portals not only in your home, but your life and in the lives of your children. This Spirit is so highly transferrable, once the door opened and not repented for, you now have a generational curse in operation that will visit the next and the next. This Spirit so highly contagious, you are now led to share so willingly with others as one would easily spread the flu. It lies and tells you that you can stop at anytime. It lies and tells you all of the fake acting is how a man and woman are to act sexually when in reality; that is not the case. Pornography is not what the Lord envisioned when He, the creator if intimacy between husband and wife created it. Pornography lies and tells you the interactions with women in your every day life, will stay the same. It lies that the anger and rage you feel and the shame and insecurities are from yourself; not it's own spiritual deception in your life. It lies and tells you God is okay with this because you aren't committing fornication. It lies and tells you that anything going awry; your relationships, finances, health, even suicidal thoughts etc., are again your own fault... knowing full well this Spirit is the culprit and causes the disciplinary hand of God to move until Godly sorrow leading to repentance comes.
This Spirit of Porneia is a death spirit and it's tentacles reach into every area of your life.
"Do not desire her beauty in your heart, Nor let her capture you with her eyelids." Proverbs 6:25
"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways." Revelation 2:22
The Lord desires for you to LEAD with gentleness; not RULE with an iron fist.
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound. Isaiah 61:1
The Man Cave-
The Man Cave is described as a room or part of a home that is a refuge for the man or men of the household. This page is dedicated to men. My hope and prayer is that you find it as a resource and a refuge for you in helping you be healed and delivered and set free, to be the man of Christ He has called you to be. I have sat and counseled with many men and found many to be loners and wounded soldiers. Some emotionally scarred and traumatized from childhood abuses: verbal, physical and/or sexual that have paralyzed them from moving forward. There is healing in Christ. There is unconditional love and freedom found only in Him. We love you here and are committed to your wholeness in our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
There are a lot of hurting men out there. Men who suffer in silence. Men who are ashamed to tell their story as if it was their fault they were victimized.
In our society it is more socially acceptable for a woman to discuss her abuse; especially sexual abuse.
For men, there is a stigmatism to it. It is a silent epidemic. A killer.
Some have grew up in harsh and impoverished environments; some having overly abusive parents and were exposed to severe physical, verbal, emotional and/or sexual abuse. The scars of verbal and emotional abuse has a longer lasting effect on an individual than that of physical abuse.
There are those who were sexually abused as children; and as a child having experienced such trauma leaving them to act out, unable to properly handle the emotional and psychological damage that was done during the onset or course of the abuse.
Men's emotions tend to default to anger. Anger is a surface emotion that comes forth due to underlying hurt, heartache and emotional pain that one is unable to properly process.
1 out of 5 boys will be sexually abused before they reach age 18.
90% are abused by someone they know, love or trust. 68% are abused by family members.
20% of child sexual abuse victims are under the age of 8, most never tell, and some don't recall the abuse.
5-10% of adult males recall a childhood sexual assault or sexual abuse incident.
Somewhere between 2/3 and 90% of sexual abuse victims never tell!
1 in 10 teen boys are victims of dating violence.
1 in 9 men will experience domestic violence in their lifetime.
Sixty percent of American children are exposed to violence, crime, or abuse in their homes, schools, and communities. (Statistics taken from: naasca.org -victimsofcrime.org)
"Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret." Ephesians 5:11-12
Every second - 372 Internet users are typing adult search terms into search engines.
Every 39 minutes: a new pornographic video is being created in the United States.
Rejoice not over me, O my enemy; when I fall, I shall rise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light to me. Micah 7:8
"You shall have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3
"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Exodus 34:14
Every second - $3,075.64 is being spent on pornography.
Every second - 28,258 Internet users are viewing pornography.
Alcohol Use Disorders (AUDs) in the United States:
Adults (ages 18+): 16.6 million adults ages 18 and older had an AUD in 2013.
This includes 10.8 million men.
About 1.3 million adults received treatment for an AUD at a specialized facility in 2013. This included 904,000 men.
Youth (ages 12–17): In 2013 an estimated 697,000 adolescents ages 12–17; 311,000 males.
An estimated 73,000 adolescents; 44,000 of which were males.
Over 11% of Americans have driven under the influence.
Men are nearly three times more likely than women to become alcohol dependent.
One of the main hindrances I have seen in men with their relationship with the Lord is: PRIDE.
The sin of pride is what caused Satan to be cast out of Heaven...
In Isaiah 14 Lucifer said, "I will... I will..."
It is pride, self will, that says, "I will to do a thing not taking into consideration whether it is the Lord's will or not.
I will to do... there is a stubbornness, a head-strongness that says, "I know better than God."
In Job 41 we see Leviathan, the Serpent of Old, Satan himself and it is written in this chapter; "He is king over all that are proud". If you are operating in a spirit of pride; Scripture clearly shows us that Satan is your king and not King Jesus. The Lord Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords yet, he is lowly and humble. It is in His image and likeness we were created. In James 4:6 it is written, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28
"Therefore I desire the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, apart from anger and dissension."
1 Timothy 2:8
God Wants His Sons
XXX * PORNOGRAPHY * XXX
Men by nature are highly competitive.
"Be sober and vigilant. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour." 1 Peter 5:7
Balance is the key to a healthy life. In Christ, priorities are a must. The Lord must come first. Anything out of order and alignment will set you up for failure and loss in every area of your life.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:17
Your role as a Father is to emulate your Heavenly Father's influence, instruction, love and discipline, and lead by example to your children.
Years ago, I snapped at my children; I was pushed to the limit, out of patience, and anger got the better of me. My words were sharp and piercing. As I walked away, the Lord spoke to me and said this, "Do I treat you as My child and speak to you as My child the way you are speaking to and treating them?"
I was burning with conviction and immediately went to them and apologized. When we come to Christ; we have to be reparented and learn to parent our children; not how we were parented; but by His guidance.
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6
"Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord." Ephesians 4:6
"Behold, children are a gift of the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; They will not be ashamed When they speak with their enemies in the gate." Psalm 127:3-5
You're Role as a Man in Christ
The subconscious mind will create the addictive personality as a form of control, denial, an escape, so one doesn't have to look at the pain, not even briefly or just enough to be healed. This can occur at any given time but more noticeable after a traumatizing event in one's life. The addictive personality has a voice, a pull, saying try this, this won't hurt, go here, there is nothing wrong with ____, don't listen to ____, they're trying to change you, if they loved you they wouldn't ry to change you, etc., and it will ESPECIALLY tell you to not be around one who will confront it and shut it down.
The addict thinks only of self.
The addictive personality cannot operate without out a lying spirit as it tries to camouflage that it is one's true self. But that's a lie. It happens so subtly people don't even know or realize until they are so far off course, so far down a path they come to themselves and say, 'How did I end up here?'